Using the New Testament as context, a commentary was made by Howard W. Hunter with respect to publicans or tax collectors, and how people viewed taxes of the day. This article states, "Publicans were tax collectors and were looked down upon with contempt. Ordinary taxes, such as land taxes, were collected by the Roman officials; but toll taxes for transporting goods were usually collected by Jews under contract with the Romans. These collectors, or publicans, made a profit on the transactions. Their fellow countrymen had no higher regard for them than for thieves and robbers. The trade lent itself to graft and extortion, and the publicans had the reputation of having some of the tax money stick to their own fingers. The Jews were smarting under Roman occupation and domination, and they considered the payment of taxes as a tribute to Caesar."
It seems congruent to conclude that the individuals at this time in the New Testament were not fans of taxes. In one light the people viewed taxation as stealing from the people. Are today's politicians like the publicans of old? Are they making personal benefit off the taxes that we all pay? Are they not worse because rather than simply collect them, the enact and determine them? ABSOLUTELY! Without a doubt, the lobby's of today are a "legal" facilitator for our politician publicans. These acts would have been considered contemptible acts to the New Testament writers.
What of the last line of the above quote where taxes were viewed as a tribute to Caesar? Perhaps this places better in context the statement of the Savior in Matt 22:21 "Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s." Christ's staement, knowing well that all things belong to God, could be interpreted on one level as teaching the law of consecration. On another level this speaks to separation of church and state. Another interpretation could be rendered that Jesus is implying the existence of individual agency to choose whom their master is and to then demonstrate that choice through tithes to God or paying taxes to Caesar.
This concept of tributes made me wonder if this is why so many people are willing to support national health care and higher taxes as tributary worship towards Barack Obama? Do the citizens and politicians that support Barack Obama feel that higher taxes represent a high adulation of the man whom they seem to praise without fault?
Perhaps the people of today are much less conscious of such a tribute. But upon my observations of MSNBC, the Daily Show and others media outlets, along with the Obama posters and stickers praising this man before he even had a chance to be president, represents a shift from a government FOR the people, to a government FOR the president. To one interpretation, taxable programs are a tribute to the man they call Obama; quite possibly the Julius Caesar of the United States.
I think you have it completely wrong. I support universal healthcare and the subsequent tax increase if any, because I believe that we are all equally entitled to healthcare as children of God. Have you ever been without health insurance and sick? My wife has a chronic illness and while working two jobs I still could not afford insurance. How the hell was I suppose to take care of my wife or my kids when they couldn't even see a doctor? It is selfish or rather evil to say that my kids or my wife don't deserve the same care as yours because I don't make enough money. How dare you decide who should gets healthcare coverage. Are we not all God's children? Perhaps I have miss read my scriptures, but I think it is the most christian thing we can do is help those who can't help themselves. So what if I have to pay a little more in taxes to help my neighbor? I will render unto Ceasar that which is required.
ReplyDeleteLikewise your hatred of Obama is laughable. Healthcare is not a tributary to Obama...this is not about Obama at all, but you can't see that. There is a problem in this country with healthcare that the private industry will not fix because it impacts their bottom line, so the government must do something. Will it be perfect? Of course not...but it will be better than the current system that marginalizes too many people.
Anyhow...thanks for the blog post...it does get one thinking...how can we belong to the same church?
Why not go the next step and rather than have universal healthcare where money is exchanged, why don't we just go to a moneyless system? Doctors can just render their services to the state and the state can provide them with a home and maybe food stamps or coupons or something. And then they can take public transpo back and forth to their work centers/hospitals. This would remove incentives for Doctors to take advantage of insurance companies and patients because they wouldn't be tempted by making a profit. It's just better when there is no temptation, wouldn't you say? Then no one would have choices to make, which are just so difficult. Besides, most people in the world and more specifically Americans aren't competent to make their own choices, which is why we need intelligent politicians like the "One" to decide for us.
ReplyDeleteWAKE UP POTTERS! Does this not sound vaguely familiar? Did not a certain SATAN, propose something sounding near exactly the same?
The fundamental flaw in your approach potters is your assumption that government is the ONLY answer. I don't disagree that health care is a good thing, I just feel that it is better run outside of government. Not perfect, but a lot more perfect that if the government ran the hospitals.
ReplyDeleteWould you like your health care run like the DMV? Would you like your doctors visits to be like going to the post office? Remember you can't get healed online like you can an automobile renewal.
Ask a veteran how their VA benefits play out at VA hospitals. The VA program will be the same way that national health care will be run only it will be bigger and more bureaucratic than insurances companies currently are now. Those that have fought for
If you care about individuals you would see that the last thing you would want for them is to have to rely on the government to provide this for them. Embrace the other options that are out there and you will see that government run health care is the worst thing to impose on its people if care and charity are what are the intended goals.
Since I know Potters is a liberal, he will then be asking the question, what idea's do you have then if you say there are other options? Okay, pay attention:
ReplyDelete!) DON'T BUY INSURANCE - When gas prices increased last year to over 4 dollars a gallon SUV prices dropped significantly. why? Because people didn't want to buy an automobile that was fuelinefficient. Prices dropped by almost 1/3. So, health insurance costs are through the roof. Fine, don't buy it and see how quickly prices come down. Did you know that most doctors charge less for a doctor visit when you pay cash? Save the money you would have given away to insurance into a tax free HSA and only pay for the medical issue that you need when you need it. Why loose control over your health care to a faceless corporation?
I realize this option is not for everyone because some health related issues cost more than monthly premiums. But the marjoirty of Americans can use the power of the dollar in their favor and costs will drop fast and significantly, watch. If option won't work for you fine, so pick option 2.
2) JOIN or start AN INSURANCE CO-OP
Insurance is practical in some cases, but not all. So for those few that need to take advantage, they can join forces and set their own rules for how health insurance can be run. If you think the insurance companies are run wrong, then don't support them. Create your own and do it the way that you want. Be like the credit unions are with respect to the banks.
Just remember Potters, being against universal health care does not mean that we think everyone should die miserable horrible disease ridden lives. Your assumption of such demonstrates your acceptance of false and misleading propaganda using FEAR ti make you think there is no other way. Remember what the adversary taught about becoming like God to Adam and Eve in the garden? He told a half truth in saying that there was no other way for such a thing to be done. It was incomplete. He neglected to tell the rest of the story.
What Obama is doing is not telling you the rest of the story. But we are. We have used the scriptures to prove our case. You have used rhetoric from the Liberal play book. Hardly doctrine. This program will be like Social Security, or like the VA hospitals that are dilapidated and provide substandard care.
I am not assuming that National Health Care is a tributary as much as peoples blind acceptance of plan Obama himself admits is currently unfindable is a worshipful tribute. Support of his current plan is placing faith in a man who has provided no proof or assurance, the kind of faith one places in God. Therefore to pay increased taxes towards a blind program like this is can be likened to giving unto Caesar whatever Caesar wants.
Potters:
ReplyDeleteI have a close friend who is giving up his private insurance policy because they can no longer the incredibly ridiculous premiums with little or no return, because the health insurance company routinely rejected treatments that he or the family need.
However, he agrees with me-- he doesn't want a handout. He doesn't feel "entitled." Now, I'm not sure whether or not we're "entitled" to health care simply because we breathe. That's a deep topic. Personally I agree with my three previous posters.
You are right in one respect, though: it is a very christian thing to help those who can't help themselves, and we are urged to provide charitable help and assistance.
But forced charity -- forced by MAKING me take care of my fellow man -- is tyranny. It is no longer charity.
And therein lies Satan's way.
Anytime I'm FORCED to do good, I have to wonder about the ultimate motive.
Tell me, would you like to live in a city where you could be fined or jailed if you did not give a handout to EVERY single panhandler you passed, every time you passed them?
What if the required handout was at least $1.00 per occurrence? $5.00? How much is too much? At what point do you start to strain under the yoke of "charitable giving"?
Those who don't strain at such a yoke are sheep...and you can't get very far on a sheep-driven wagon.
Why does everyone who is for universal health care assume that those who are against it are swimming in health insurance coverage?
ReplyDeleteIn America we are guaranteed the access to health care regardless of our financial circumstances. Meaning if you get hurt or sick a hospital has to treat you. Isn't that enough for you? Why do the doctors, nurses and guys around the corner already struggling to feed their own families have to pay for your health care? Have you no self respect or reverence for that which is earned and paid for with your own hard work. Yes, the bills are high and you may spend the rest of your life trying to pay them off and maybe even your credit will be ruined so you won't be able to buy the new Toyota to replace your 6 year old car or the house that has a room for every child.
For myself I rejoice in being able to be completely honest with my fellow man, i have not taken anyone else's hard earned money to pay for something I can pay for myself. Even if the payment takes the rest of my life.
I have no health insurance, I live on a very limited income with with 3 kids who get sick weekly it seems, but I never want anyone to be compelled to pay for their care or mine. That is why they are my kids. I will provide for them if it means losing my house, my possessions, my 33 year old car that I keep simply because I can't justify spending money on a new car when I can be saving every extra penny toward future monetary crisis.
Teach your kids the value of hard work. Living righteously is hard, don't give your kids a sense of entitlement that on the judgment day they will face the Lord saying "I wasn't as strong as Molly down the street so I figured you could put some of my sins on her shoulders."
Just as a side note Potters... I find it hard to take your opinion seriously when an English professor lists the twilight series in their profile as favorite books.
ReplyDeleteWell I guess you can’t be a member of the church if you disagree with pres. Potter. You sound like a very angry man. My wife is taking medication for breast cancer for another 4 years and I have diabetes and guess what? No insurance. I went from $200,000 a year to $8.50 an hour. I now own a trailer and a dodge… something cheap. No more multiple homes or Jaguars. I do still own an old Mercedes and it doesn’t run. Well the long and the short of it is we live in doors and have food to eat so we are rich. We have enough to pay for her medication and are almost full tithe payers. Oh I don’t think someone should have to pay for my insurance.
ReplyDeleteDon't worry I won't be sharing my opinion on your blog again. While some of the responses were reasonable, though condescending, others were just rude. Twilight is a favorite of my kids you moron and no I am not angry...frustrated and disappointed with my fellow saints, but not angry. I will leave that anger to some of you here and pray that you are not in my ward.
ReplyDeleteOK.... Who was rude to the liberal? C'mon, speak up!
ReplyDeleteHow dare y'all forget that only Liberals have the right to free speech! Y'all just need t'shut up and take it.
Let's see, Potters, rude? Most of the responses I see are fairly even-keeled.
ReplyDeleteWait... I do see a post that says that others on the board are selfish, evil, and un-Christian. Oh, also blind.
Interestingly, it's all from Potters' original post.
Potters made a very good, real point about the problem with healthcare today. I ask that those of you who were unkind in your posts refer to Alma chapters 11 and 12. God cannot show mercy to the unrepentant. It's silly to try and make one political party or one policy satanic.
ReplyDeleteJavelin and Potters,
ReplyDeleteClearly you are convicted in your own hearts for being on the wrong side of issues of agency of which Christ suffered death that we might have. The fact that you are getting fussy with a bunch of posts that are constructive and in now way negative (Maybe Crayon Face needs sensitivity training though) or attacking to you shows the weakness you feel about demanding your life at the hands of others. How about instead of demanding your care in life from your government and thereby the rest of the people in the country why not put your testimony into action and ask God for help? He takes care of the lilies and the birds why not you and your family? To me it sounds like you are turning o the hand of man for your salvation instead of God.
MG,
ReplyDeleteYou sound like you are trying to convince yourself to believe what you post. It seems like you are a little "fussy" since you have not been able to demonstrate staying on task. This post is about whether or not torture really works.
As far as agency goes, I'm fine with it. Remember, Christ's atonement gave us the chance to have valid repentance. Agency just means that we are not robots in the plan.
Correction. This post is about whether taxes are part of Satan's plan. Sorry about that.
ReplyDeleteTo Javelin,
ReplyDeleteRe: As far as agency goes, I'm fine with it. Remember, Christ's atonement gave us the chance to have valid repentance. Agency just means that we are not robots in the plan.
I am not understanding how a person can be okay with agency, and be okay with taxes for things like universal health care. Would you be willing to give a solid answer as to how you can reconcile the two things? Because in my mind they stand in conflict with each other.
There isn't a conflict. The atonement allows each individual to be judged by their own actions. My sins are not your responsibility. Agency just means that you and I are able to do good or bad. The atonement allows us to repent when we do bad.
ReplyDeleteHealthcare is about making sure each individual has the basics covered so they can see a doctor when needed. If something serious happens, they can get treated instead of left on their own.
Keep in mind that healthcare can be very complex. Who is number one on the list for a kidney? Can a woman have a breast reduction procedure covered by insurance as if it were breast cancer? What happens to the drug addict who cannot keep a job and add to the community? Does he get a free ride, or do we close the door on him?
These are not simple things to answer. What President Obama is doing is opening up the door for our community to do more good for each other. We are better when our neighbors don't have to worry about if they have to give up food or medicine.
The problem with this topic is that it brings out the extreme in some people. Mrs. Palin did that with the death panal nonsense.
I don't have a problem with taxes helping the community as long as it is not going into the pocket of someone who does not need it. Not always easy to control this when we live in a telestial world.
Javelin,
ReplyDeleteRe: I don't have a problem with taxes helping the community as long as it is not going into the pocket of someone who does not need it. Not always easy to control this when we live in a telestial world.
This is the crux of what we have been trying to say the whole time. Why is it the governments job to determine who "deserves anything"? What Obama is doing, and don't be fooled by the various sources claiming to be Obama or political slick talk, is wanting every American, whether we want to participate or not, pay money into a system that will not legally be able to say NO to anyone for anything even those who don't need it. Why? Because of anti-discrimination laws. Plus, if anyone was ever denied coverage then Obama would have set up a system of the people saying no to the people, and the system would become just like the insurance companies that he is demonizing to sell his programs. His ego couldn't handle that and the people shouldn't be placed with such a burden; socially or economically.
Re: What President Obama is doing is opening up the door for our community to do more good for each other.
How is someone like me, as someone living in Utah, paying for some stranger in New York or California and his or her medical coverage supposed to give me a sense of community? What sense of community are you speaking of here? There isn't a country community the two words are opposite of each other. Community is a trigger word that is supposed to lull people into thinking that this is going to make all things better. The president shouldn't give a crap about community. That is for mayors and city councils to work out. The president should be worried about matters of national attention, not about community.
Plus I don't need Obama's permission to be charitable to one another. Do you need your president to open any doors to help people? Is there a shortage of people to help in your area that we need the most powerful man in the world to open that door for you? If your statement is true, what gives him the right to tell me what I can and can't do with my money! He is the president. Working for the people. He is not my life coach, my mentor, and he certainly is not my boss. I am HIS boss. We the people are more powerful than he is because we put him there. I don't need his permission to open any such doors to me. Thank you very much.
Did someone step in some liberal and track it all over the blog?
ReplyDeleteJavelin, I thought you were against torture? Why are you torturing us? Ok, I guess it was me picking on the liberal. I haven’t finished the book “How To Talk To a Liberal; If You Have To.”
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to type this with a stright face. While I'm not trying to make someone have a nervous breakdown, I do admit there is some entertainment to this.
ReplyDeleteJavelin,
ReplyDeleteSo its now fussy to encourage others to turn to Christ with their troubles? Apparently citing the words of Christ is fussy as well? Come on, are we communicating with a base belief in Christ and the scriptures or are you just some commie troll trying busting up blogs you don't believe in?
Health care just like so many other issues in the world are not about "making each individual has basic coverage" but rather a question of force over agency. To provide heath care for every person you have to take from one to give to another, this is forced morality. You can espouse the virtues of caring for all the children and uninsured until your blue in the face (which you seem willing to do) but the bottom-line is that to make your ideas happen it has to come at a price, that price will be made up from taxes IE forced confiscation of an individuals income. There is no agency there, in fact it is identical to Satin's plan to force everyone to do be good and get saved. On a purely agency based point you have no legs to stand on.
Also agency goes much farther then not making us robots to the plan. It has to do with wanting and choosing to develop the corrector of Christ. This level of morality is something that each one of us has to come to individually and can not be achieved through the force of God or government.
To move the conversation in a different direction all one needs is a Economics 101 class to know that our government can not afford health care. So beyond being an immoral idea it is un-fundable.
If you want to talk about our responsibility to care for one another then maybe we can talk.
MG,
ReplyDeleteStill don't buy your take on agency. Everyone in Zion will be taken care of. Agency will still exist in a community where everyone steps up to the plate and takes responsibility for each other. You keep looking at the glass half empty.
The difference between ZION and the plan of Satan is agency. Simple and clear. Satan's plan took it away, and ZION embraces it with all its challenges and tests.
ReplyDeleteGovernment mandated Health Care to be paid for in a tax takes away my agency with respect to where my money goes, who I help, and under what circumstances they are worthy of help. (yes I said worthy of help-it happens all the time in this church don't act so offended.)
If you believe in government run health care then that individual is truly incapable of true charity. If we have to be forced to help one another than that means we were not capable of choosing charity ourselves. Therefore the greater crime is not that individuals are not getting medicine but that we as a people are void of Christ-like characteristics.
I ask you Javelin, which is the greater crime? No free medicine or a society bereft of christ-like potential?
James,
ReplyDeleteI don't buy your arguement about taxes taking away your agency. When you and I pay our tithing we don't lose our agency. A bishop makes the choice to spend that money, and you and I continue to feel the holy ghost in our lives.
You have to remember that zion is a celestial people, but you and I live with telestial people. We have to make choices that won't be perfect. How to use our taxes for the community is one of those choices.
RE: I don't buy your argument about taxes taking away your agency.
ReplyDeleteWhat is there to buy? A tax is not an option, we have to pay it even if we don't want to. Therefore if we have no choice, then there is no agency.
RE: When you and I pay our tithing we don't lose our agency.
This is true because with God we are able to chose to pay it or not. It is not taken from us we CHOOSE to give it.
Re: You have to remember that zion is a celestial people, but you and I live with telestial people. We have to make choices that won't be perfect.
Telestial people make telestial choices; celestial people make celestial choices. Have you not heard the oft repeated phrase, "In the world but not of the world?" God does not excuse poor choices because "everybody else is doing it." Your statement sounds like a rationalizing excuse for sin and places the blame for your life choices on others. We ALWAYS have the choice to choose to follow God and the commandments over sin. There is no such circumstance where that is not true. Celestial choice always exists.
Your statement of, "We have to make choices that won't be perfect" demonstrates your complete and total lack of understanding with respect to the principle of agency. Agency means we have a choice. Your statement implies that we have no choice but to do chose below God's standards. If this were the case, then God would not be a just God and would therefore cease to be God.
Now if you statement read, "we often make choices that are less than perfect" I would then agree with you. Simply because we still remain in ownership of our actions. When it comes to judgment day, God will not accept placing the blame for OUR lives onto someone else. The choice to follow God might result in death, but many in this church have declared their willingness to accept such a fate should that be asked of them.
James,
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that you have never been in a classroom as the teacher. I think if you are a teacher you might have a better understanding about how agency works. You can't just say to your students to study and listen. They are agents unto themselves. As a teacher you still have a responsibility to teach each student. That is easier said than done.
I am still floored from your last comment Javelin. First of all, we are the ones that talk about people being agents unto themselves. You are the one that is talking about MAKING people pay into a tax for universal health care, not having the choice to do so. We have been the ones to repeatedly talk about agency in this light. And now you have the stones to use our principle and say that WE don't get it?
ReplyDeleteI am a teacher by the way, so your perception is wrong as is turning out to be predictably the case. Your continued comments that are off topic and completely unsubstantiated by scripture or support from any authority outside of your own head lead me to believe that you are either a teenager and inexperienced with gospel principles, or you are like many who feel that those outside of the church are more inspired than our prophets and apostles.
So lets get back to the topic of the article Javelin: Prove how taxes are righteous and are in line with principles of agency? You have disagreed with everything else that we have said so I assume that you actually disagree with the content of the article as well. So lets hear it.
I'm not a teenager, although I have nothing against the views of someone youner than myself. I never said people outside the church are more inspired than the church leaders. My comment was the holy ghost confirms absolute truth. Prophets don't have that since they are human.
ReplyDeleteAs I recall, none of the church leaders have given a talk about how paying taxes takes away your agency.
Again, it's not about taxes being righteous.
Javelin,
ReplyDeleteRe: As I recall, none of the church leaders have given a talk about how paying taxes takes away your agency.
Please read the article and the comments again as I have quoted several who at least in principle reference the concept.
I figure it to be a safe assumption that you are hardly capable of recalling of all talks by all general authorities on any subject and therefore can't support the idea that there has NEVER been a talk on the subject.
I for one can read or listen to talks and have many principles be taught out of what they said without them having to spell it out in exact language.