Wednesday, December 9, 2009
Boxer, Reid, Pelosi, Biden, Obama - Where does the nonsense end?
Here you go you liberal whiners! The unaldulterated version........still sounds the same to me.....
Alan Keyes said on election night when the death of our nation was sealed as Obama was declared the winner, "Has the world gone mad?" I wonder daily, I really do. So what is the sense behind Dems wanting to increase our energy costs in addition to doing nothing but exacerbating the already precarious situation of our dependence upon foreign oil? When did Mankind become the enemy? I thought the earth and all things in it were created to assist in fulfilling our existence - that "Men are that they might have joy!" Stop raining on my parade, LIBS! All I want is to be a productive member of society - Work to provide for my family and improve our station in life and raise my kids in a safe area.
Lower taxes! Stop taking my money for governmental bureacracy and social programs that cripple society! Stop pushing social agendas and political idealogies that weaken our nation! Stop wasteful spending of taxpayer money! Just stop.... Why can't you liberals out there see that Washington is full of corrupt officials that have forgotten they were elected to serve the public and not themselves?
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dude, you realize that Obama DID in fact lower your taxes. I really hope you realize this.
ReplyDeleteShow me the money! Don't just state something you claim as fact and provide zero information to back it. Furthermore, and I'm not agreeing that he did indeed lower taxes, but it's not beyond someone knowing or hearing something that I haven't, and if so it must be a ruse because there is no way on this earth of ours that he can continue to spend and have spent as much money as he has without the repercussion of increasing taxes.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29314485
ReplyDeleteI never make points that I cannot prove. You received a tax cut that began on April 1 of this year. And it benefited you and the economy around you. Great work Obama.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18238-why-theres-no-sign-of-a-climate-conspiracy-in-hacked-emails.html
ReplyDeleteHahah, this is a joke. Climategate? I can't stop laughing. You really need to educate yourself before you buy into political bullshit. You think washington is full of corrupt officials? Oh, and Chuck Devore's not one of them? He's not serving himself. No, never. He's really out there to serve the public.
This videos is a bunch of sound-bytes. Yes, the very ones Glenn Beck loves to rant about. I'm sure your familiar with Glenn Beck. You probably buy his books.
You take a couple sentences Obama uses, throw them out there by themselves, completely out of their original context, and of course it's going to sound terrible. You could do that with ANYONE's words.
I'm not a supporter of the Obama Administration. I'm a socialist. This anti-big-government craze drives me nuts! Cripple society? The only thing that cripples society is the mammon, greed, and profit-driven terrorism that evolves from capitalism, and is conducted by the corporations. It's not the government that's the problem. It's the corporations that are corrupting the government.
Capitalism worked for us for a while. But today, we're not the almighty nation we used to think we were. The thriving countries today? Huge government. Socialism. Or better yet, social democracies. And there is a difference.
Look at the Quality of Life Index. Consistently, countries with social democracies, or various forms of socialism, and LARGE governments, are the ones who top the list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_index
Men are that they might have joy? Don't give me that. The homeless, the poverty-stricken, those who can't afford health care, aren't getting any of this joy. While you go about having joy, others suffer. Men are that they might have joy? How about Love Thine Neighbor as Thyself?
Big government is not the problem. Liberalism is not the problem. Taxes are not the problem. Climate change is no conspiracy. It's fact. And if we don't change things, change them quickly, and change them MUCH MORE DRAMATICALLY than the Obama administration is doing, then we will suffer the consequences. Within decades.
Capitalism is the problem. Conservative capitalism is the problem.
You were right about one thing in this post. That was when you claimed that your taxes were being wasted. They are. They wouldn't be though, if conservatives would stop fighting so hard against letting them be used properly. If you don't want your taxes to be wasted, then stop fighting the cause that wants to use them for positive change.
Was it a tax cut or a credit? That was one of the most convoluted articles I've seen MSN produce, and they're in the business of making convoluted articles. You're like my liberal friend at ASU who said she liked to read unbiased periodicals like Newsweek. Right.......... So was it a tax break he wrote, or a credit, or money back through the porkulus, er stimulus. To me that was unclear, and like I said earlier even if it was a "tax break" that's just a guise to divert attention away from more frivolous spending and tax increases on the horizon. You are so enamoured with your self proclaimed Messiah, but if I've learned anything in my short life; the steeper the climb, the sharper the fall and as we've seen with housing markets in Arizona and stock markets in New York, the trend holds true and Obama's facade will come crashing down as steep as his fraudulent assent to the White House.
ReplyDeleteReed - I'm skeptical of any politican that clings to the corrupt two parties that run this country, however Chuck Devore served in the military as an officer and I'll give him respect for that. As for your claim that Capitalism ruined this country, I wholeheartedly disagree. Capitalism is what built this country and it is liberalism, socialism, communism, or any other ism that restricts the free market and agency of man to any degree that bogs down the "invisible hand" and grinds the cogs of the free market to a halt. What is the full measure of the Quality of Life Index and who runs these Indices? If personal freedom is restricted and taxes are high, but hey they have free healthcare to show for it and that is what is determined to be a "High Quality of Life" Index, well to me that's no life at all and I'll keep my lower taxes, freedom, and a lower ranking on the "Quality of Life Index" thank you.
GWH,
ReplyDeleteObama reduced the amount your income is taxed. And it came to about an extra $50-60 per paycheck, depending on how much you earned. That's for the foreseeable future. So your March paycheck may have been $2500 after taxes, your check in April would have been $2560 after taxes. That was an ingenious way to stimulate the economy, because that extra $60 a week we each got back from taxes we go out and spend on various items. Far better than a one time only check of $1500, which we would use to pay off a credit card, or purchase one big item.
It's a shame that you let yourself listen to the stupidity of the Glenn Becks of the world, GWH. There's a far better world out there than that fool, that charlatan will let you believe. Seriously, wake up.
Dan, who a person "listens to" is not an insult unless you consider the one sided approach of those whom you probably "listen to" a potential insult as well. So I know you feel that listening to Glenn Beck is an insult, but it just isn't. Its like when GWH calls you a liberal. He might mean it to be that way, but that is who you want to be so you are probably not insulted by it.
ReplyDeleteBut if you want to go the "guilt by association route" that you have had a problem with in the past, I will meet you there.
Who does Obama "listen to"? Does he not cavort with extremists, racists, communists? Has he not surrounded himself with individuals who spew ideas like "we can spend our way out of debt". What kind of backwards mentality is that not to mention opposed to the inspired counsel of the brethren who promote prudence and avoiding debt?
I read your linked article and it was so ambiguous I have no idea even to what bill Obama is referencing. What bill "gave" us these allusive tax cuts, or breaks, or credits, or whatever he thinks he is doing.
And lets just go with the merits of Obama's own words. If in fact we are expected to get an additional 60 dollars or so every paycheck (average) how much money is that really (net) when you consider the inflation that his massive spending and over production of hollow money Obama and Timmy Geithner have done? They have raped the US dollar almost beyond repair.
As far as I am concerned, even if there is a real bill that has given some kind of real tax advantage to americans (still to be proven that one exists under his administration), it is of little benefit when you consider the economic destruction that needs to be offset by Obama's own policies.
Plus, if you don't want GWH to use sound bites, then don't submit an article loaded with sound bites and no real facts to support your argument. It doesn't bode well for you. And REED, easy on the swearing if you don't mind. Last I checked, that sort of "speak" doesn't fly to well if your pursuit is a scholarly or at least semi-educated approach - let alone one with a declared LDS audience base.
Well perhaps you should read the link that I already provided you with.
ReplyDeleteHealth, Family Life, Community Life, Material Well-Being (GDP per person), Political Stability and Security, Job Security, Climate and Geography, Political Freedom, and Gender Equality.
While some of these things have nothing to do with government, many, probably most, of them do.
George Bush was in the military. And even the republicans know he screwed us.
You're right to say capitalism built this country. It did. And it worked well -- for a while. But times have changed, and capitalism no longer meets our needs.
Also, I hope that you, if nothing else, at least realize that this particular video is pure propaganda. They could sound byte DeVore to, and make him sound like some sort of Anti-American or something. Guaranteed. If you wanted to post the video of that interview with Obama, that would be one thing. That would be credible, and unadulterated. But to post this video is another. It's completely unreliable, it's out of context, it's not credible.
If you're looking to come off as fair, rather than another conservative drone with Obama-Derangement-Syndrome, then edit this post, and include the video of the whole interview in which those comments were found. You can even leave Chuck DeVore's there too.
My sincere apologies for the curse word. Truly. I didn't even realize. Although I wouldn't say that the use of such words is a sign of lacking education. But I respect your beliefs.
GWH- you know I am not a liberal and think most of their political decisions are ridiculous, but why did you pick an ad from a political campaign? It kind throws all credibility of what is being said out the window.
ReplyDeleteHey Reed, I checked out your profile and your blog. I thought you were posting stuff on this blog just to stir things up, I didn't know you were truly....don't take this the wrong way because I don't mean it that way, but "confused". My Mom has a saying; it's good to be open minded, just be careful you don't become so open minded your brains fall out. There are fundamental laws which exist in life, gravity is one such law. The existence of God is another but it is not as recognizable to the physical senses which exist in Man as gravity. It is however equally relavent and can be just as recognizable when you open your heart to the promptings of the spirit and align your life in obedience to gospel principles a.k.a. faith. When these two combine God is bound to reveal his existence to us. No man can serve to masters, there is God and Mammon, and Satan/Mammon/The World tries to tantalize us with the glitz and glamour to blind our eyes to truth, and real truth is eternal, like the truth that God exists, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the original gospel given to Adam and Eve.
ReplyDeleteThank you GWH, that was very kind of you to take the time to tell me those things. My mother has actually told me that same thing about being open-minded.
ReplyDeleteWhile I am, of course, struggling with the church, I honestly believe that socialism works better with the LDS gospel than does capitalism. After all, the church just officially added helping the poor and the needy to it's original three-part mission.
If you have any thoughts on any of my blog posts, please feel free to give advice/suggestions/evidence/reasonings/etc. The majority of the religious ones are a bit farther back, chronologically.
Thanks again.
Well, everyone is entitled to their own perspective. The way I see it, socialism is an extension of the conflict which took place in the pre-existence. I've had this discussion many times with liberal family members and friends and as a capitalist when I see someone poor or suffering I have the same empathetic feelings towards that individual as I assume any liberal does. The difference being that I want to seek a solution for this individual and not perpetuate their suffering through dependence upon others charity. I'm not saying we shouldn't give to alleviate immediate suffering, but I want to seek a long term solution for this person and often times just giving someone cash only exacerbates or perpetuates their current situation. You know, John Stossel did an experiment where he placed one of those bell ringers outside an upscale department store in a rich area of San Francisco, known for both it's wealth and liberal policies, then comparatively placed a bell ringer outside a lower middle class Wal-Mart in Oklahoma a true blood Red State. Do you know what he found? The Ringer at Wal Mart brought in exponentially more money than the wealthy district of San Francisco. Similarly, my Dad was telling me of a family that was on the news in Boise recently because a Dad, Mom, and three little girls were living in their car because the Dad had lost is job and subsequently lost everything else along with it. It's been -10 at night up there and one of the little girls was saying that they couldn't run the engine all night long because the Dad couldn't buy gas and so it got pretty cold and it was hard to sleep because police would shine their flashlights in on them throughout the night...Pretty heart wrenching. Well my parents went down to the homeless shelter to deliver some gifts that their ward had collected and my Dad mentioned this family to one of the workers at the homeless shelter and She said there's a happy ending for that family - apparently another family in the area are serving in the military up there and got assigned out of country for a year and they invited the family living in their car to come stay in their house rent free for the year to get back on their feet. The worker then told my parents that she's lived in a lot of places, but has never lived in an area as generous as Boise.
ReplyDeleteThis rambling has a point, and that is that liberals think Capitalists are heartless, and fairly Capitalists think liberals are brainless. The argument which took place in the pre-existence was that Satan could take away agency and heap the glory upon himself because he would ensure that no one would sin and they would all "make it back". Christ said that suffering would exist, but the agency of man would be protected and the glory would remain and increase in the Father. Christ would fulfill all justice through the atonement and all could have the potential to "make it back" if they would use their agency to commit themselves to Christ.
The key to all of this is Agency. Capitalism allows man the freedom to exercise his agency in his industry. Socialism restricts agency for the "better good". Socialism is a lie, it has never worked and it never will work. It's a counterfeit to the law of consecration.
My only response to your argument would be that socialism does exactly what those families did to the family in the car.
ReplyDeleteIt takes care of them until they can get on their feet.
We all know this life isn't fair. Born into poverty? Well, your chances at a decent education are slim. Slim chances at decent education means slimmer chances at doing well for yourself. Some people start behind in the race. These people need help. Maybe I'm a cynic, but I can't trust the human race to care for these people without some sort of all encompassing organization (i.e. government). Socialism gives these people an equal chance at life. Socialism makes higher education a possibility for everyone, regardless of socioeconomic status.
Oh, and also, I think you may be mixing socialism with communism a bit. Socialism gives according to the "deeds," while communism gives according to the "need."
As far as hand outs go, the lazy people in the world who don't WANT to try and get a job, health care, etc. don't get any more help from the government than our current semi-socialist welfare program does now. In fact, probably less. If people are making an honest attempt to provide for themselves/their families, and honestly trying to make it life, they are helped. Communism aggregates and distributes wealth, just like socialism, but communism gives it to people regardless of their "deeds." Socialism gives it to those who make the effort.
I can't feel okay about letting people suffer, just because they weren't given the chances I was. I was born into a middle-class household, with good parents who taught me how to make it in life. Some people are not that lucky, and I am willing sacrifice my wealth to give these people a chance.
Capitalism focuses on the individual. Make it or break it. Fight to the top. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.
Socialism focuses on the greater good.
With all this said, I know I won't change your mind. But at least consider looking at the views of socialism as reasonable and good-hearted. We have a lot of socialized things here in the US, and if you ever could support JUST socializing health care, or maybe higher education (like public, basic k-12 ed.) then I would consider this discussion worth every word, even if you still support privatized, capitalized everything else.
That's my point, it wasn't socialism at all that took care of that family, it was a capitalist, conservative, military serving family that extended out of their own free will and choice a charitable act, not mandated whatsoever by an external entity such as the government. Time and again Conservative states are the most charitable in per capita donations vs. the more socialist states in the union have the tightest pocket books. Why? Because as government mandates charity - people reallocate what they would have donated to what the government takes out against their will. See it's not liberals who are open minded and positive, it's actually quite the opposite. Conservatives are generous and optimistic that it is not necessary for government to mandate charitable donations because people are essentially good in nature, vs. liberals who believe everyone is a lip service charitable person but do not trust that people are generally good in nature, they are pessimistic and do not believe there are enough good people out there to take care of the sick and needy.
ReplyDeleteWho determines when someone is "back on their feet?" Clearly our government currently, and no government in history has been able to effectively rehabilitate people back onto their feet. Case after case after case proves otherwise. Government run programs cripple societies. The U.S. government and the Native Americans is a prime example, the U.S. government and illegal immigrants is a prime example, The U.S. government and African Americans is a prime example, The Australian government and the Aborigines is a prime example, The French government and Algerian immigrants is a prime example, the list goes on and on and on. Socialism does NOT work, it never has and it never will. The U.S.S.R. collapsed and even in their prime could not compete with U.S. production in terms of both number and variety of product on the shelves. Government run programs cripple societies because they throw money at problems and do nothing to educate people and assist them in pulling themselves out of poverty. It de-incentives personal education and productivity by rewarding idleness with a paycheck. Which does nothing but stifle the desire to be productive by those who work as more burdensome taxes are placed on their backs to compensate those who stay at home.
You said, "Communism aggregates and distributes wealth, just like socialism, but communism gives it to people regardless of their "deeds." Socialism gives it to those who make the effort."
How? Can you show a case in history where this is the case? Socialism is merely Communism-lite. My wife's grandma is here visiting from France. She doesn't speak English and has spent most of her life living in Paris, France. She has watched as Socialism has destroyed the country. She has reiterated her entire stay here how socialism has destroyed France and if the United States follows down that path it will destroy the U.S.
You said, "at least consider looking at the views of socialism as reasonable and good-hearted."
I say to this - The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Fidel Castro had every intention of doing good when he won the Revolutionary war in Cuba. He has oppressed his people and kept them in poverty for half a century, to the point that people flee Cuba by the boatload for a chance to make it to America. My wife has been to 46 countries, I've been to a handful, and I feel like kissing the ground whenever I return, not just because it is home, but because this country is like no other in the world. People risk their lives to get here, Why? Because there is no place in the world that offers the freedoms that this country affords its people. It's the difference of America that sets it apart from the world. Remind me why we want to change it to look more like Europe? When this people cease to reverence and protect the freedoms purchased by the blood of its' forefathers, that will be the ruin of this nation. And this is exactly what is taking place today under Barack Hussein Obama and his socialist party.
But Reed, what GWH is saying is that in a non-socialistic society all good is still very possible. Socialism doesn't have a lock on charity. In fact I would argue that socialism hampers charity because of the very reason that GWH mentioned - Agency.
ReplyDeleteRemember this one underlying principle and it is deeply rooted in the doctrines and principles of the atonement. Love is not possible without agency. You cannot be forced to love just as we are not forced to accept or take advantage of the atonement. The greatest saving act in human history is not forced upon any of us nor was it forced upon Christ to perform. Christ needed to chose to perform that act of charity or it would have been of no value in satisfying justice.
Therefore it is contrary to the laws of heaven to tax or force individuals into taking care of another's needs. Fast Offerings are not a tax and there is a very real spiritual principle in that. In fact, the idea of socialism is such that it pawns charitable acts onto the government to take care of those in need rather than each individual acting charitable towards their fellow brothers and sisters. Therefore, the charitable acts of another (in this case some government agency) are of no value to the individual if the money used to support these government programs was taken from them to perform that act in the first place.
Capitalism doesn't focus on the individual anymore than the gospel of Jesus Christ does. You treat this individualism as if it is a sinful concept yet there is plenty in the scriptures to suggest that our salvation is a very personal matter with the Lord and that the Lord is concerned with each and every individual.
The greatest good is when each individual fulfills the measure of their creation, not simply surviving or being average. We were put on this earth to become our potential. God does not live our lives for us, we must be the one to chose to act charitable and not be acted upon. When it comes to final judgment the good deeds of another cannot be applied to myself for my salvation. I will become what I choose to become. I will obtain a glory based on my choices and my acts; not by how much taxes I paid to the government to subsidize a charitable service to another.
Capitalism is not without welfare assistance, capitalism is not without charity. The difference is that with capitalism the people give because they want to not because they are forced to or taxed into it.
Your assumption that there are no poor in socialism is lacking historical proof. With socialism there are still poor people, there are just fewer rich people.
By the way, I want to thank you guys for keeping the second part of this conversation civil. I think that this has been vastly more desirable conversation than the name calling and insults.
ReplyDelete